Jack Roebuck: 0:00

So I first joined as, um, an SEO exec working with our clients. Um, so we had a team of three then, um, and had conversations with Neil around the aspirations to grow. Some of the new business that we were winning. So within about six months, then started managing the team. Um, then sort of fast forward two years, we had a team of, uh, 11, now it's a team of 12, got about 140 clients right now. So we have gone from about 30, 40 when I first joined up to about 140 now. Um, and with some plans to, to grow further.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 0:31

Well, thanks everyone for joining us again today. I'm very excited to be joined by today's guests. We have Jack Roebuck, he's chief operating officer of Digital NRG. So Digital NRG, for those who don't know, they're a collaborative, fully integrated, award winning agency, helping businesses through a range of digital marketing channels. Jack's here to share his story. And Journey into SEO. So Jack, thank you so much for joining us here today. Awesome. Perfect. Yeah. Looking forward to it. Yeah. Very excited to have you on. So if I understand correctly, you're joining from Bristol, correct?

Jack Roebuck: 1:03

Yeah. Bristol UK. We are based in North Bristol. Um, a lot of good agencies here in Bristol, lots of good SEOs as well. So a great place to be honest. Yeah, I mean, it's

Sarah Nuttycombe: 1:14

quite an artsy town, isn't it? Like I've, I've visited years ago, but I loved it. It's got such a buzzing, vibrant, independent scene, right?

Jack Roebuck: 1:20

Massively so, yeah. We've got a really good bunch of people that work here as well, and just the wider SEO community in and around Bristol. Really, really good bunch of guys and girls. So yeah, really enjoy it here. Cool.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 1:31

Awesome. Well, I guess, Speaking of SEO, we've got a lot to go over today, um, in terms of SEO and link building and of course a little bit of your own story. So, um, kick me off, tell me about how you got your start in SEO.

Jack Roebuck: 1:44

Cool. Yeah. Good question. So, um, I was on my university degree, um, was doing a bit of reading, um, just in my free time starting to sort of. Delve into the world of SEO. And then I did a placement year. Um, and that placement year was with Gareth Simpson. So the founder of Seeker, who also works with Pitchbox. Um, so that was about eight years ago now. And that really sort of opened my eyes up to the wider world of SEO. Digital marketing as, as a whole. So the other channels that come with it. So ever since I had that placement year, I just absolutely addicted to it, which is, um, yeah, I live and breathe it. Not just SEO now, I have to say, I have branched out into the paid channels as well, and also into web development. But yeah, that's kind of where it all began. And then during my final year of university, was approached by Neil, who's the founder of Digital NRG. to join the agency as an SEO exec and sort of grow the SEO team here. Um, so we had a team of three then. And had conversations with Neil around the aspirations to grow some of the new business that we were winning. So, within about 6 months, then started managing the team. Um, then sort of fast forward 2 years, we had a team of, uh, 11, now up to a team of 12. Got about 140 clients right now, so we have gone from about 30, 40 when I first joined. Up to about 140 now, um, and with some plans to, to grow further. So I think for me, the natural progression was from SEO to, to managing the SEO team. So the processes, all of the sort of streamlining of how we run as a department, which is where Pitchbox comes in. Um, and then fast forward another two years. As that knowledge sort of developed, I started to get involved with other channels, definitely paid social and paid search, the impact and sort of how those channels work with SEO. And then that led me to some more account management, um, sort of based activities with some of our larger clients. Um, and then throughout lockdown was exposed to more agency, top level, how we run, how we operate, and then, yeah, and in the, uh, the COO role now. Okay.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 3:53

Okay. So you've kind of had your hand and, and. A little bit of everything it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm curious. So I, um, just from prior conversations to you guys and, and picking up a little bit on you and in my research, it really seemed like you guys had, um, this grassroots beginning, like, you guys, um, have really grown a lot over the years. And I'm curious if you could paint me a picture of that, um, what that looked like and maybe how kind of really starting, um. Thank you. from that grassroots position has impacted your culture and the way that you do things today. Yeah,

Jack Roebuck: 4:27

massively so. So, um, I remember on my first day, we were in a boardroom, no different to the size I'm in now. Um, and we had six of us in that office, um, two of which are still here today, um, and pretty integrated in terms of the actual size of the agency and day to day running of it. One of which, um, has sort of gone on a similar progression to me. So, he was an exec hired in as a SEO exec, then branched out into paid social. As we got bigger from a paid social point of view and had more and more clients, we won some business from UCAS, um, some really big clients here in the UK. He then grew that side of things, focused in paid. And now he heads up the account services team and he's the account service director. He and myself have been right at the start and through the growth, the clients that we've won and helped to build, um, sort of the processes and everything that comes with that increase in clients and also. Increase in average value order as well. The clients that we were working with when I first joined, versus where we are now, a lot more demanding, um, a lot more KPI focused, and with that, you need to refine the processes you're doing, how you report, how we communicate, how we ensure standards across one exec to another exec is the same, um, and yeah, big focus on that, um, essentially from growing within. Um, we've also then, sort of since doing that, recruited externally as well for some key, um, areas sort of like paid media. Heads of departments to bring in their knowledge as well. So it's not just from Joe and myself. It's also external knowledge bringing into the agency too.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 5:58

Yeah. I'm glad that you brought that up because, you know, that was something I wanted to ask you about. I understand that you guys really expanded your client base, but like you said, there's also kind of. Bigger, uh, they've just got a different subset of needs, right? Um, so I do want to ask you about that in a bit, but I think before I get there, I want to understand, you know, you guys are winning these great clients, um, you're, you're scaling in the process, but how do you feel like you cater uniquely to your client's needs, um, that maybe sets you apart from other

Jack Roebuck: 6:28

agencies? Oh yeah, good question. We, we do actually get asked that a lot in pitches as well. And I think the biggest thing I sort of say to most clients is. The whole partnership side of things. So although they may come on for SEO, paid social, paid search, if they have questions around how they should set up their CRM, or how they should integrate XYZ with their wider marketing or business, um, sort of operations, we're there for that. So when you have a look at some of the reviews that we've got as an agency, and also personal reviews on LinkedIn for. Some of the people in the agency, it's always that it's that we go above and beyond for clients, not just from what they pay us for a step further. So SEO, um, as we know, some people do understand it. Some clients don't, and it's bridging that gap of how that then impacts their wider team. So if let's say we start ranking for some really great keywords, we're driving a lot of leads through, but then we see that the actual conversion rate for the business is not very good. We go back and look at search intent. We also then work with their sales teams. So are the type of leads coming in being dealt the right way? Are they going through to the right people through contact forms, phones, and kind of more consultants in that sense. And that's where we quite early on set the hierarchy in terms of any account that comes on has a dedicated account manager who does that sort of stuff. And then the delivery team, so an SEO exec, paid social, paid media exec. Then owns that channel so that the account manager can really have those top level conversations, listen to what the delivery team is saying, apply that to the client, and then present that back to them, if that makes sense. Yeah, it

Sarah Nuttycombe: 8:02

does. Um, I mean, it's, it's interesting because it sounds like you guys, it's very easy to say we provide this service, we solve this problem. But it sounds like you guys are digging deeper. When something's not working, you're going to go back and find it. You're going to go make it better. So of course, everyone wants their problems solved in the best way possible. It makes sense that people are kind of signing on and partnering with you, as you said. Um. Now, I, I, I think I pulled this quote from your site because it, it stuck out to me and I really liked it and I wanted to get your take on this, but I saw it said somewhere it's like, uh, everyone's doing SEO, but it doesn't mean that everyone's doing it well. And I wanted to know what that meant to

Jack Roebuck: 8:37

you. So I think firstly, from my point of view, we obviously get, um, reports from other agencies, other SEOs out there, and it's not to say what, what other agencies or other SEOs do isn't right. Every agency has their own sort of style, but I think the biggest part that we sometimes see people miss is that you get lost in the detail. We're so held up on how we've acquired links, the process to do that. Sometimes people forget, how do you tie that back to the customer? So one of the big things we sort of have as one of our core values is what's in it for them. So rather than tackling a scenario saying what's in it for us as an SEO exec. How do we tie in all of that work that we've done to what's in it for them, for the customer? And I think that really is one of the biggest things, because if you go right to the start of any SEO campaign, keyword research is probably the first, second, third task that needs to be done. If you get that keyword research wrong and you start ranking for the wrong keywords with the wrong search of intent, driving people the wrong sort of traffic, And you haven't had that wider conversation with the client around business objectives, how it all ties into the what's in it for them, and are just focused on this keyword because it's got good search volume, low competition, looks like it could be good. If you don't have that conversation to tie it back to business news, business objectives for the client, you could spend three to six months working on this keyword that, yes, has loads of search. That won't actually drive to any conversions through the site, so that's usually, so when we say that, that's kind of what we mean by that.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 10:07

Okay, yeah. Um, it's interesting you kind of laying out your process and how you would tackle that. Um, I understand there's. A lot of pieces to the puzzle and there's a lot of people involved with that and I'm so curious to hear how you guys approach building a team to sort of manage every part of that process. Like, did you find over the years that maybe there was a little bit of like a secret sauce to this is the right team structure for things like link building?

Jack Roebuck: 10:36

Yes, I think, um. One thing we're actually currently reviewing at the moment is how we structure that within the SEO team. So historically, the way we've done this is average value order for us as an agency is about 15 to 20 hours per client. Um, so with that, sometimes we are limited to the amount of time that. Each individual could then outsource to another exec around how much delivery time they have for outreach. So we very much empower each exec to do all areas of outreach, what we've actually learned through using Pitchbox and just team feedback and how we structure things moving forward. is that empowering certain team members for different tasks within outreach is much more beneficial. Firstly, from a productivity point of view, but also an enjoyment point of view for the exec doing the work. So we're really restructuring it in terms of those who enjoy the prospecting side and pitching the ideas. And then also those who then create the content, create the sort of infographics, the studies, all of that. So that there's two distinct sort of paths. So just to reiterate and summarize what I'm saying there is. The first part for the outreach side of things from us is definitely the prospecting and that actual negotiation with an editor or whoever it may be. And then the second stage is obviously that production, so we're kind of splitting out those responsibilities to execs now.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 11:54

I'm just, I'm wondering if you guys have a way of working together when things come up? I mean, you're obviously thinking about your team members and going, Okay, it's probably a bit more enjoyable for you guys to work on it in this context, in this context. We want this to be. A good process, but you know, when things go wrong and challenges come up, how do you guys kind of band together to go, okay, hats on, let's figure this one out. The good

Jack Roebuck: 12:19

thing is there's a lot of support within D& ID. So we've got kind of a hierarchy within the SEO team that is. Everyone has, um, kind of like their line manager, but then there's also people dedicated to certain specialisms. So we have one who really heads up the strategy side for clients, one who is from a standards point of view and one from outreach. So if, let's say a problem arose where we spent two hours prospecting, finding and pitching ideas, then another hour and a half creating it. And then we get to final stage and the editor said they don't like it. We then share that amongst the team with the outreach lead who heads up that they would then bring their sort of thought process to it. How can we tackle it? We've also got a good network, which is what Pitchbox has helped us to build, but a network of sites that we know we have worked with in the past, got a good relationship with. So we'd likely, if it doesn't work with that site, for instance, we then get in touch with one that we have worked with in the past, as long as we haven't already got a link from them, then, yeah, why wouldn't we do something like that? So very much work with our peers, share the sort of problems that we have, and we have some weekly and also bi weekly and then monthly sessions around trouble accounts or trouble issues that people are having with the team in the boardroom. So everybody brings any issues they've got. And it's kind of just a, um, yeah, everybody just works through the ideas together, gets different points of view and then apply that back to their, uh, their account.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 13:42

Yeah. When you talk about that, I see this visual of, um, like a, like a relay. You guys are handing off the baton to each person and, you know, without one person in that part of the race. You're not making it to the finish line, right? Because

Jack Roebuck: 13:55

it can be, it can be tough when that happens because you yourself, you're so proud of the work you put into it, secured a really good link, got excited about it, and then the editor says no. Um, but to have the reassurance knowing that you can go to someone else in the team, see how they would tackle it. Um, and it's very much not a siloed thing, you're in it together with the wider team to help fix that issue. Um.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 14:17

So I do want to focus a little bit on the links, links aspect, because, you know, we're, um, we're excited to be talking to agency owners and talking about how. Every single agency, every single person attacks SEO and link building differently. So I've got a couple like standardized questions that I've been talking to everyone about. So I wanted to ask you in your expert opinion on this. So, um, my first one is, is how do you get links for your clients?

Jack Roebuck: 14:46

Um, so as I say, we've got quite a range of clients. Our average value order, as I said, is around 15 to 20 hours, but we have some that go up to 60, 70 hours as well. So because of that, we have sort of differing, um, tiers that we then offer to clients. So right at the base level, so start at the base and then work the way up. So we've got just your local sort of niche directory level. Um, then we would start to work through outreach and more advanced operators that we would want to be working with. One thing that Pitchbox is really good for is the advanced operator campaign within when you're actually building, um, your prospecting list. When we want to get into more targeted content. That's when we would actually spend a lot of time manually identifying which sites do we really want to work with. Um, maybe have a look at some competitor link building, um, so to see what links of competitors got that we can then acquire. We'd also then potentially look at unlinked brand mentions as well. That's quite a good way of, um, getting a load of links through sites that already mentioned the client, but haven't actually linked through. And then obviously the beauty with Pitchbox is you can just upload that as a CSV. Straight into your prospecting list and then run that through the email automation as well. Um, we're starting to work with Harrow a little bit more. I mean we've used that on and off for the eight years I've been in. SEO Harrow can be great, but also for an agency of our size. We very much know our sweet spot with clients and it is that 15 to 20 hour mark Harrow, you can end up wasting. Not so much wasting, but time can go quite easily. It's a lot of time. Time can really go quite easily on Harrow. And if you spend four or five hours and you go to 10 requests that have come through, there's no guarantee there. Um, and one of the issues we always have with outreach for that level of client is how do you justify it when... You spend this much time, but there's no guarantee sometimes, um, with sort of acquiring a link. And that's where one of the reasons why we actually went for Pitchbox was to help us streamline that and improve our win rate, essentially. Okay.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 16:44

Okay. You just named a bunch of different ways that you guys were, were building links, but I'm curious, do you have a favorite

Jack Roebuck: 16:50

tactic? Yeah, I think for me, um, changing people's perception of what link building is, um, and. A lot of the time people build it solely for that link, but what we are doing with some of our insurance based clients is targeting sites that we know get a good amount of traffic to them. They're communities that we can actually tap into. So, yes, we're getting a link at the end of it, which is great, but we're also then getting some good referral traffic to the site. And also getting some good brand awareness because it's a niche that's very relevant. As a result of this, we've got to rank one within two months, um, built quite a few decent links for the main keyword for this client. Um, and just seeing the impact that that then has had. Not just from an SEO point of view, but this has also then created an audience for us to remarket to on paid social. So, I guess the point I'm making there is, from my point of view for link building is, the best way to do it is, wait, let me just rephrase this one. Um, in terms of the best link building approach for me, it's one that encompasses not just SEO benefit. But benefit from other channels, um, and bring in the wider piece together.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 18:00

Absolutely. Um, it's interesting to hear how you guys, I like that specific example of how you win with one of your clients. Um, but... Let's think about things in terms of scale. So, I mean, if you're trying to, um, pick up links in large numbers, what do you think is the most effective way to do that? Cool.

Jack Roebuck: 18:19

Um, so definitely the advanced operator side of things is a very quick way to get a lot of prospecting done. You get decent links, uh, that will come through as prospect. And then as long as you have some good filters set up, so we, um, integrate. through Pitchbox into Ahrefs so that we can set up our predefined filters. And then that way it already does some of the automatic filtering for us. Um, so definitely the advanced operator side of things. But also, um, as I said earlier, the unlinked brand mentions, because it's a really good way of just finding sites that have already mentioned you. All you need to do is get in touch with them and ask them to specify a link as well. So quite a quick way. So definitely the advanced operator side of things. And then also unlinked brand mentions. Okay,

Sarah Nuttycombe: 19:03

cool. Um, I like this question. So what do you think is the most important quality of

Jack Roebuck: 19:08

a good link? Good question. So there's a load of factors to this. Um, as I hope it's coming across my opinion on outreach is definitely changed from where it was when I first started. So if you'd asked me that when I started, it would have been do follow and it would purely been down to domain metrics. But now, it's very much, yes, they are good metrics to have, you need to make sure that you've got good DR, it's either, it falls in line with sort of the link profile you want to be building, so how many do follows do you have that's no follows, that's sponsored, but also now, um, and across the agency, we're trying to push making sure that it's an actual site that has actual traffic to it. Um, and also that there's an engaged audience as well, so that you can benefit from that referral traffic and a lot more than just the link itself. So, trying to change people's perception on link building, it doesn't just need to be getting it live on a load of sites, it's actually targeted. It's a decent link from a domain point of view, but then also these other metrics around referral traffic and, and that side of things too.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 20:07

Okay, cool. Um, in a similar vein, you know, I, I would say this question is a, like a hot take question, but do you think link building is overrated, underrated or fairly rated?

Jack Roebuck: 20:19

I would say fairly rated. I think people still realize that links have a place. Within SEO, um, there's always videos, blogs that you'll see online saying link building is dead, X, Y, Z, but the amount of sites that we work with, we've got 140 clients for a lot of them. We follow a similar process to building links. And we always know that as soon as you've got your on site in a good place, there's no technical issues, you've got well optimized landing pages, then you move on to the link building side of things. As long as you can get some decent peer links that are back through to your relevant landing page, obviously you've worked on your anchor text splits. I personally see it as it's going to be something that's going to be around for many years to come. And I also think people are starting to move into the same mindset of myself and the agency that link building isn't just from a links point of view. It's more into that digital PR space

Sarah Nuttycombe: 21:11

now. Absolutely. I think that's a fantastic answer. And you're right. Um, I, I think a lot of what you just said, it reflects a mental shift in the space, if you will. Um, So, you know, you offer link building as a service. How do you charge for it? So is it per link, monthly retainer, or just part of larger SEO packages? So

Jack Roebuck: 21:30

this is again, something that's quite relevant in terms of how we operate as an agency because we're currently reviewing this. So at the moment it is a monthly retainer. So a client is on for X amount of money with us. We would then assign a percent of that to budget for acquiring links, but then also assign time out of that budget to the actual prospecting, the automation, the creating the content. So, one thing we're potentially looking at moving forwards is. Similar to how we run, um, our paid media offering and almost having a, an amount of spend and then charging a sort of management fee that covers that and then separating that out from the overall SEO

Sarah Nuttycombe: 22:12

budget. I guess changing gears a little bit, uh, the time and place, if you could paint me a picture of when you guys were first looking for Pitchbox. Um. How were you, you know, were you maybe struggling to solve some particular client problems at the time or was it maybe just a struggle of, we just need to, to do link building a bit differently? Like what, what was going on for you guys

Jack Roebuck: 22:33

at the time? Yes, I think, um, it was very manual, the process that we had set up before Pitchbox. So there was a lot of Google sheets, um, a lot of Gmail accounts, a lot of mail mergers happening. Um, and the amount of time as we were growing and winning a lot of new clients. The execs were then spending on this was so much time was just spent in the admin side of putting it into sheets then writing the emails and partly why we wanted to to reach out to Pitchbox and I think we had a look, um, had a look at both of the tools. Yeah, for us it was really to solve that manual element and just improve. Sort of productivity when it comes to outreach. We had about four or five SEO execs. I probably say between SEO clients and the types of clients that we were starting to win would just get into that point where they knew of link building, they knew of outreach, and we almost needed something that would. Firstly, streamline the process, but help us ensure that we're able to offer links continually at a good level to our clients, because the SEO that we do, we're very not much, not a specialist SEO agency, but we do cover all areas and we've got technical specialists, onsite specialists, and outreach was an area where we needed to, to upscale. We had a couple of calls with Alex and he just took us through the platform in detail, really showed us some of the ways that agencies were using it. The upskill, because at the end of the day, also, this is a good upskilling tool for execs in the agency, how to automate outreach, how to take it to the next level. We have some junior members who've been working in SEO for about a year, year and a half, already really upskilled on Pitchbox because it's very intuitive. You've got a real clear process of the prospecting, then actually the negotiation stage, and then right the way through to the, if you've won it or not, and you can see quite easily from a management point of view as well. How's the team performing? Who do we need to help, um, upskill? Maybe somebody's doing a lot of prospecting but struggling to win, um, links. What do we do there? That then forms part of the one to one with that person, and then part of their professional development plan. So, although we're speaking quite a lot about client impact, there's actually quite a lot of, um, development for execs and the wider SEO team that came through using Pitchbox too. I'd love

Sarah Nuttycombe: 24:48

to know, how did that impact your, your client base or. The way that you guys were able to deliver for them. I don't know if there's any maybe data in particular that you know, off the top of your head that goes, yeah, this is our numbers went from this to this. Um, Yeah,

Jack Roebuck: 25:05

no. So I think definitely from my point of view, firstly, um, it was the type of clients that we were winning and then also retaining. So. Our retention rate for SEO clients is 97 percent at the moment, um, heavily impacted also by, I, I believe the sort of standard that we've now set for our link building efforts. Um, so that's one angle is the retention that that's then created for, um, Our SEO team and the clients that we've got there, um, in terms of the second angle, obviously the streamlined nature of running it. one thing that's really helped is the amount of links that go live in any given month. We then create. a master sheet. So prior to being with Pitchbox, we didn't really have any relationship. We had a couple of relationships with some key players, but not massive. We are an agency that specializes in a couple of niches as well. So insurance being one of them, appliance retailers being another, and there's quite a few other ones that we started to specialize in. As a result of using Pitchbox, we've then got a master sheet of what we've built over the past sort of 12 to 24 months that we've been tracking this, that we would classify as got a decent relationship with them, and should we have a client that comes on in a similar niche, or we're looking to get on board. XYZ. We can then go back to that list and that come about because of the speed at which we're able to prospect within Pitchbox, but then also have the email conversations and follow all of that up. And then obviously export the data into just the Google sheet so that we've got that as an asset for new clients, but also for current clients. So we were talking about earlier around, if you go through the whole process of finding decent sites, then pitching the ideas, writing the content, but then not actually going live, we then refer to this list. Does that fall into this criteria? Yes, it's not a great fit. Let's tweak the article a little bit and then send it across.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 26:55

so I think you were alluding to this a little bit and this circles back to the point that you were making before that, you know, so time and place you were talking, we're going from 60 to 70 clients a few years ago, you're now at

Jack Roebuck: 27:08

140 140.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 27:11

Okay. A massive, a massive change. We're more than doubling the clientele. And you mentioned that the clients you're working with, they're bigger, they're more international, they've got really ambitious growth plans. To me, I, I just would love to know what impact that has had on digital energy and how do you tackle your clients challenges when they are all of a sudden at this kind of bigger scale and everything's quite different than it was a few years ago. Um, I guess in a way I'm asking, how do you swim with that tide and still manage to scale yourselves successfully, operate successfully? Yes.

Jack Roebuck: 27:48

I think, um, firstly, the thing I've noticed since being involved in the account manager for some of those bigger clients, It's the free reign that they also give to you. They know that they're hiring us in as experts in a given field. So whether it's SEO, whether it's paid social, whether it's paid search, and we very much get empowerment. So we will set KPIs with the clients around what we need to achieve each quarter. We've then got our quarterly strategies that reflect. That's essentially their objectives. How are we going to achieve them for each channel? But I think the thing that has really stood out is just having top level conversations with them around what they are trying to achieve and how that filters through to each channel. So while we're talking specifically about SEO on this call, there's still a lot that goes on from a paid search and a paid social point of view with these conversations with those clients. And I think it's just making sure that. Me as an account manager or someone else as an account manager, brings all of that to the table and ties it back into what this business is trying to achieve and doesn't get lost in the data.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 28:47

On that note, do you have any examples, maybe anecdotes of transformation that you've been able to bring to a client? Yeah.

Jack Roebuck: 28:54

So, um, I think a good example is the, um, Japanese car import client that I mentioned. So. As I mentioned earlier on, we work with a lot of insurance brokers across the UK. We're part of some pretty good, um, partnerships with those. So for us, this came up as a really good opportunity for the client. Um, we're up against some pretty big players in the UK. You have aggregators that really do have sole SEO teams building a lot of links to these sorts of landing pages. So from our point of view, we create a landing page fully optimized from an onsite point of view. FAQ schema was implemented, really good landing page, really good sort of load time. Made sure that that was all fine. Then we moved on to the link building side, and this was where, going back to my first few points around what makes a good link to me, we tackle not just links from a good DR and obviously good authority point of view, but also based on the relevancy and also the traffic and Actual brand awareness that we'd get through being with these partnerships, um, and getting links back. So off the back of that, we've then had links come through for this client. We're now ranking Rank 1. But also, the client's been invited to have a stall at their bi yearly meetup. So they meet up every 6 months or so. So... Off the back of our SEO activity, we've actually created a whole other avenue for the client to get involved in. Um, so yeah, I'd sort of say that. Yeah, that's an

Sarah Nuttycombe: 30:15

awesome example. I mean, just in light of everything you just told me, what does it mean to you personally to see that transformation, see that impact, see those, the new avenues

Jack Roebuck: 30:25

being formed? I think for me, um, the biggest thing is when I'm on the client calls, then I can say directly that the link building efforts that we've achieved have helped us rank position one for this keyword. As a result of that, we've then seen this many conversions. This has actually then led to this many converted business, your end, because we've got access to the CRM and we can tie the two together. That is what I absolutely love when we can 100%, maybe not 100%, 90 percent say that that has come from the link building activity we have done that has attributed to the reason we rank there. And then say how that's actually generated business for our clients, as opposed to just saying, we're now ranking well, but we don't know that other part of the puzzle, making sure that. Ranking and then traffic and then also converting is all happening, if that makes sense. Yeah,

Sarah Nuttycombe: 31:13

absolutely. Um, I mean, a related question and perhaps it's the same answer, maybe not, but what gets you out of bed every morning to show up, um, at your job? To

Jack Roebuck: 31:23

this agency, I think for me, I absolutely love the variety of agency work. So I think if I was in house, I'd get bored pretty, really quickly. We've got such a variety of clients. I mean, I myself work with, uh, 15 clients that I look after and involved in, but obviously being in the position I'm in, I get exposure to all the clients we work with, so that presents different problems. We have to problem solve and fix them. Um, and I think also the pace at which. The digital marketing industry, not just SEO, but as a whole, you constantly have to be on the top of your game. You could be on a client call, and they may have an internal digital marketing manager, or marketing exec, or whoever that may be. And just making sure that you're at the top of your game, so that if they ask questions, or scrutinize data, or ask X, Y, Z, you're then ready to do that. So I think what gets me out of bed is that drive to still learn. I still have the same drive. As when I first got into SEO, if not more now, because I realized how much is out there across other channels as well, not just SEO.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 32:23

Absolutely. Well, you know, that, that relates to my next question because you're talking about, um. How you still have to keep on top of things. There's still so much to learn. And so I'd love to know from your perspective, what do you think it's going to take to stay ahead in SEO in the future?

Jack Roebuck: 32:38

Good question. I think one good thing to always do is create trial sites. So one thing I see on YouTube, I think Matt Diggity does it, a couple of other guys do is with ChatGBT. For instance, just because it's quite a hot topic, they're creating sites that are purely built through content from ChatGVT, seeing how far they can push it to get rankings before they sort of get penalized. Now, obviously, you would never do that for a client, but it's a really cool way of trialing things to see how far you can push things before stuff like that happens. And it's always good to have trial sites. I've got some myself, a couple of people in the office do, and you would try things that are a little bit more out there that you wouldn't do on client sites. Thank you. But you can then bring that back in and take learnings from that as well. So I think that's one way, definitely trialing things. And then I think secondly is learning from your peers, so... For me, being in an agency of this size, everybody brings their own skill set and has their specialisms. So we have weekly, uh, so every Monday morning, we have these performance and progress meetings within every single team. Um, stopping in and listening to those, seeing what each team's working on, make sure that I'm up to date on SEO, paid social, paid search, web, what's happening there. And for those that aren't fortunate enough to be in an agency where there's that sort of level of skill set, I do just think making sure you're active within LinkedIn communities, Facebook communities, Reddit, it's a really good place as well, and just making sure that you, if you feel yourself falling into that sort of complacency, challenge yourself, try something new, pick up a new channel to learn, there's loads of Google courses, never lose that drive to constantly want to better

Sarah Nuttycombe: 34:14

yourself. Are you able to sort of take a step back and reflect on who you were when you first started at Digital NRG versus who you are today? How do you think that that kind of trajectory of being in this agency has impacted you as a person?

Jack Roebuck: 34:31

Would you say you're any different? Would I say I'm any different? Uh, good question. I think I've still managed to keep that drive and hunger to learn. I think I've definitely matured. Through having to, to be in the position I am now and obviously through covid and everything, there have been some, some tough times to make some tougher decisions and I think it's definitely helped me progress from a business management point of view outside of SEO into running an agency and everything that comes with that. Again, we're talking about SEO here, but it's obviously the HR element. There's the recruitment, there's financing, there's everything that comes with it, and I think for me, been very lucky to. Be exposed to that. Um, and also very lucky to have the support from Neil and the guys that own the agency to sort of let that happen as well. Just

Sarah Nuttycombe: 35:19

jumping in on something you just said there. Um, you get to have this high level look of what it takes to operate an agency now. Um, do you? Would you say there's a secret sauce to making an agency run?

Jack Roebuck: 35:32

Um, I think definitely you've got to focus on the people, what is going well, what isn't, making sure that you don't get tied down too much to the day to day side of things. Think top level. How can I take this person? What's their potential? How do we give them, um, growth? And what does that look like? Um, so that's definitely one. Um, but then obviously the efficiency. So if you look at every single department, so we as an agency, we, we track time for our tasks so that we can see which client is on budget. How can we streamline things? Do we need to have a conversation with the client? Um, and constantly thinking about all of the tools that we have at our disposal, how can we use those to make sure that we are as effective as possible? What can we give to... Um, different automation tools to speed things

Sarah Nuttycombe: 36:18

up. I love that. I think that's great advice. I think that's gonna be really handy for people listening in and wondering like, how do I take the next step in my agency, but do it in a way that's gonna, um, work with my vision of how I want to scale things. So that's, that's really cool. Um, I guess wrapping up here, I would love to know what's next for you. For digital NRG, what do you think the future is going to look like for you guys? Good question.

Jack Roebuck: 36:41

So I think, um, firstly, from our point of view is we've got some quite, uh, big objectives for this year and also next. So we really want to try and grow the agency by about 50 percent in terms of clients. So that is not just new clients. That's. I mentioned our retention rates for SEO being at 97%, but one thing we've really realized is to get the best results for our clients. It's for us to then look at the paid social, the paid search, the website, and make sure everything works together. So, if you're running an SEO campaign, How do we make sure that the paid search campaigns that we're running tie into that? How can we supplement things off the back of that? Have we then set up remarketing audiences for the content that we're pushing on, um, on SEO? Also from a paid search point of view, have we then created lookalike audiences? And just take that sort of holistic view. Because sometimes if we are just running one channel, the client is not running it at its full potential. There's a lot more that they could be doing. So I think that's one of the sort of real big aims. And then also, with that growth will then come new employees. So we've onboarded two new members of staff in the past two weeks. Looking to grow by 50 percent in terms of new staff as well. And then the final one that we're pushing. To, to the entire agency is a hundred percent upskill in knowledge. So what does that actually look like? That is, if you are in the SEO team, are you trained to the level where you can understand C-R-O-P-P-C paid social to the point where you know the impact that has on your day job. So that. Let's say you're analyzing Google Analytics and you spot X, Y, Z. If that client isn't on one of those channels, you can then work with the account manager, spot the opportunity, and then obviously help a client grow into a different area. So, really, a big focus on, on all of those three things, really. Amazing.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 38:29

Oh, gosh. I mean, to say that you're going to be busy is, seems like an understatement. But in the best way. Um, I love it. You guys have, uh, It's, it's an ambitious vision, but, um, with everything you've laid out, I can see how all those pieces of the puzzle are going to be such a powerful thing for you guys in the years coming. So, uh, it's very exciting what you guys are building.

Jack Roebuck: 38:50

I appreciate it. And as I say, um, agency life, definitely for me, the pace and the speed at which we move, I really do love it and thrive off it. And I think a lot of the other people within the agency are the same. And it's quite an interesting conversation, that agency that's And there's obviously pros and cons to both. But I do think agency life, um, for someone really wanting to, to learn and push and develop themselves, there's no better place for it, really.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 39:15

I love that. I think I have to end on that note because I think it's, it's the happy ending to the whole story. Um, well, Jack, I really appreciate you coming on, sharing your story. I definitely learned a lot today and it's just so... Uh, it's an incredible opportunity to talk to someone like you and see kind of a bird's eye view of what an incredibly successful agency looks like and how they operate. So thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you

Jack Roebuck: 39:38

Sarah for having me. And, um, yeah, just really just to second some points I made around Pitchbox and it has been a real big benefit to the way we operate since using the tool. So, uh, yeah, I can't recommend it highly enough.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 39:51

Amazing. And, um, if anyone, anyone wanted to find you, reach out to you, talk to you, how can they get in touch

Jack Roebuck: 39:56

with you? Yeah, the best way to reach out to me is, um, LinkedIn, um, drop me a, a connection request or feel free to just email me at Jack at digitalNRG. co. uk. I'm happy to have a conversation about anything that's sort of been covered on this or any questions that anyone may have.

Sarah Nuttycombe: 40:11

Awesome. Well, thanks again, Jack, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys get up to in the future. Thank you.